Manaolana Talk: Recent Posts

Manaolana Talk: Recent Posts http://manaolana.org/talk/ Manaolana Talk: Recent Posts en Fri, 21 Nov 2008 03:09:11 +0000 Terry on "What is Leadership pt 1" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=28#post-60 Sat, 28 Jun 2008 08:50:11 +0000 Terry 60@http://manaolana.org/talk/ What is Leadership? One of the major concerns I've heard when we began the house church transition is leadership. If we split up wouldn't we become like sheep without a shepherd? Wouldn't it be chaos? The issue and concept of leadership is something I've been learning and putting together for a long time. What is good and effective leadership and how will it affect the church and businesses. Throughout my reading in military history I've learned quite a lot and would like to share what I've came up so far. First of all, I would like to address the "sheep without a shepherd" issue. The thing is, who exactly is our shepherd? I believe this is a very important question we need to constantly ask and remind ourselves everyday. Psalm 23:1 says "The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want" and I think it nails it down. The Lord should be your shepherd! Not the pastor or anyone else! If you look at how sheep are dependent on their shepherd, that is way too much for a single person to handle if a bunch of people depended that much on him or her. If you look around just a little bit you'll find a ton of heartbreaking stories of pastors being crushed and burnt out from all the responsibilities placed on them. Don't get me wrong, I don't deny the idea of spiritual leaders, mentors, elders, etc, however we should never forget that we must place God at the very top. The role of the pastor is something I never understood too well. The pastor is the central figure of the modern church, yet surprisingly there's no clear cut role for the pastor. One thing I find odd is the word pastor is only mentioned once (which is in Ephesians) in the entire Bible! Furthermore there's no "job description" or anything explaining what being a pastor is! One of the things I really dislike is when people put pastors or other people on pedestals. I remember when going to Hope Chapel Kaneohe sometimes we would have guest speakers in place of Ralph Moore. After the sermon people would complain "I wish Ralph Moore spoke instead". I would also admit that I sometimes was disappointed with the messages that guest speakers gave out, however, I knew that Ralph understood that he wouldn't be around forever and that this is a very important of the discipleship process to train others up. As far with the issue of chaos, should we even care? I think some chaos is good. Really, if everything always goes on neatly and on schedule with no real spontainity, wouldn't it get boring? What matters most is that we become closer to God, and sometimes being spontaneous is part of the equation. Also look at Jesus, even He made it clear to his disciples that He wouldn't physically be around forever. While Jesus taught and lead the disciples He told them that He will be betrayed and put to death. After the death and resurrection He stayed with the disciples for a while longer, then told them to go out, make disciples and that He'll be with them in spirit, and departed from them. Did the disciples wind up like sheep wandering around? This is why I brought up the issue of God being your shepherd. We all need to be lead by the Holy Spirit first and foremost. More on this later. Dayn on "Scripture" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=27#post-59 Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:38:36 +0000 Dayn 59@http://manaolana.org/talk/ So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 2 corinthians 5:9 Dayn on "Extending..." http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=26#post-58 Mon, 12 May 2008 14:16:41 +0000 Dayn 58@http://manaolana.org/talk/ Afew days ago, I called up an old friend, she was really someone who encouraged me to grow stronger and stronger in my relationship with Christ. It was good to have her around. Unfortunately she moved and our talk times are a lot less. There are monthly texts that we send, but nothing beats a phone call. Anyways, i don't like talking on the phone a lot, my ears sweat. I feel like i am flattening my ears. I talked to my friend for 2 hours, that is a lot. For me. I got to talking about church and where our church is going, she was so excited! I was so glad that I could extend my home church all the way to chicago. A little before our conversation, she had just heard a pastor speaking about how "for church" they didn't go to their "church building" they went around the community and helped anyone and everyone out. Don't quote me on the exact words but the pastor she heard was sorta speaking towards this home church movement. This intriguied her more to know about it, and is so excited that we are being encourage to reach out and "ACTUALLY" seek God out. I am going to send her that site kaala sent out about home church.... I am just excited. She encouraged me in that short...or long conversation. Love it coryutak on "Sticking it Out" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=25#post-57 Sun, 11 May 2008 22:18:16 +0000 coryutak 57@http://manaolana.org/talk/ I started out the Sunday by watching Big Trouble in Little China. Its a story about a guy who is focused on making the wrongs right and hopefully in the process get his semi back from the gang who stole it. He is committed to staying in the battle till the end...oh, yeah and a cute girl is involved. Oddly enough in the end he doesn't get the girl, but gets his truck, and the movie ends with him again, as in the beginning driving at night with his sunglasses on talking on his cb radio (to himself?). Inspiring nonetheless to hang in there when the you know what hits the spinning blades. Anyway afterwards I headed out to Costco Hawaii Kai to buy some Mother's Day dinner items but first stopping by that boat landing nearby. It was a peaceful time just talking with God about things before I had to go (if you know what I mean...to much H2o earlier). I remembered two things we talked about. One was about my conduct at work in dealing with (we shall call them) challenging folk...the message was for me not to get in the way of the challenging folk but to give them space and pray for them and send them off...in peace. In many ways I was a challenging folk who received tremendous mercy...ok, I get it. The other thing was about marriage. I was thinking theres so many broken marriages out there. Why Lord would anyone get married? What benefits are there? In the larger sense I understand that the enemy doesn't want people to create more people because people were made in the image of God who he hates. At a macro level, there lies commitment. God is all about commitment. All those times he could've hung it up with Israel but he stayed with them. After dinner, we decided on a movie that my sister had sent months earlier (years?) but I had not seen yet. I think I sensed somehow that it wasn't up to par with the usual blood and violence that I am accustomed to which is why it remained hermetically sealed in that funky plastic wrap that I usually don't have enough of a fingernail to open it with. After watching it I must say that it is one of the good ones in my collection. Again a story of commitment. Based on a true story of a guy who was committed to the pursuit of happyness despite the many frustrations he faced along the way. kaala on "Eh, how you?" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=24#post-56 Sat, 10 May 2008 11:42:17 +0000 kaala 56@http://manaolana.org/talk/ It kind of ebbs and flows for me. some days I find God at TOMA (top of mind awareness) other days I might go the whole day without even thinking of him. I think I need to put together a sort of workout plan like: 1. through the year bible reading (for general exposure to the word) 2. regular quiet/meditation time (for contact with that still small voice of God) 3. Spiritual gatherings - i.e. our home church gatherings (for fellowship and mutual edification) 4. Family devotions (for the training and strengthening of that group that my most important priority) 5. Writing/journaling/blogging (here and on paper) - for some deeper thinking about me and God and growing closer to him 6. Stopping frequently to reflect on the beauty of the creation while surfing, driving, kayaking (to have my soul and spirit refreshed and revived) Dayn on "Eh, how you?" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=24#post-55 Wed, 07 May 2008 13:05:44 +0000 Dayn 55@http://manaolana.org/talk/ I was just wondering how everyone is doing? How has you individual growth been? While doing the not so formal churchy stuff, has there been growth? leesa on "First House Church Baptism" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=23#post-53 Sun, 04 May 2008 19:41:19 +0000 leesa 53@http://manaolana.org/talk/ Today I had the honor of watching Kaala baptize my co-worker. It was an intimate expression and declaration of a fresh faith void of a bulletin announcement, road signs for direction, tents or leis. Yet something very real took place with no over head,set up or stress. A simple friendship and sharing of the gospel was enough to grow a disciple. The bridge that brought us together was sweat in our garage. Today I know God was pleased. pics here <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/kaalas/ManaolanaBaptism" rel="nofollow">http://picasaweb.google.com/kaalas/ManaolanaBaptism</a> kaala on "Autochristendom" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=21#post-52 Fri, 02 May 2008 19:46:29 +0000 kaala 52@http://manaolana.org/talk/ ahh...Detoxing from the automation! I don't want to go through the motions either. That's the point really - I can workout in a fabulous system physically for a long period of time and reach that leveling off/plateau and be stuck phase. It's the sameness that gets us in trouble... Do you remember the song "If you like Pina Coladas, getting caught in the rain..."? It was about a relationship that had gotten stuck and both were looking for different partners. The ad that was placed (the chorus in the song) describing all the exciting, happy things that they wanted and seemingly couldn't get from the other. When one responded yes and they met ("It was my own lovely lady") they both realized that in the other there was more than enough if they were free from the ritual their relationship had fallen into. Now...maybe a stretch to include this song here but I'm writing off the top of my head - scary thought :)BUT there can be some similarities. Some of us get dry in our relationship with God and think "This isn't going to work. I need another God." (or some other possible response) not realizing that joy is possible, real joy, within our existing relationship with God. Sooo...am I advocating Pina Coladas with God? admin on "Growing up..." http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=22#post-51 Fri, 02 May 2008 09:38:05 +0000 admin 51@http://manaolana.org/talk/ amen sister! Dayn on "Growing up..." http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=22#post-49 Thu, 01 May 2008 21:47:01 +0000 Dayn 49@http://manaolana.org/talk/ I remember when I was a kid, I used to hang out with my mom and dad a lot. They took me everywhere, bought me things, gave me the things that I needed. My relationship with them wasn't "deep", but it was good. As I grew up, I did what most teenagers did, I rebelled against them, and anything that i "had" to submit to. That distanced my relationship with them and I lost sense of who I was. It took a while, but now as an adult, my relationship with them has grown much deeper. I am able to converse about things that never could be understood when I was a child. I am able to go to them and get the comfort only a mom and dad could give. I have fun with my mom and dad now. i am able to fully be who I am with them. I don't talk to them everyday, but i call when i can, or stop over. I talk to them more often than i did when I lived there. It's just something I have to do. I want to do, to deepen, to strengthen, to keep the relationship going well. We all have a responsibility when it comes to any relationship. Why should it be any differently when it comes to Jesus? In the beginning of our relationship with God, it's easier. We are on fire. But someday, the fire may blow out, and we have to light it again. Sometimes, we don't want to though. It gets pretty dark. When you first start dating someone, its so exciting, new, spontaneos. After a while, it's not new and you have to work at it....same with God. People can sure help us out with our relationship, but we personally have a responsibility, because it's OUR relationship. coryutak on "Autochristendom" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=21#post-48 Thu, 01 May 2008 06:34:12 +0000 coryutak 48@http://manaolana.org/talk/ It seems that almost everything is automatic these days. We live by a schedule. Alarm goes off, pray, drop kids off at school, go to work, pick kids up from school, do the laundry, cook dinner, set alarm, go to bed....rinse lather repeat. If things could be more automatic, we would probably go for it. Why is that? Maybe it helps us to focus on the things that are priority in our lives. It at least seems to follow the order of things at least the way God has set it up.... the sun rises, living creatures get up make noise, sun goes down, quiet settles. But what about our faith? I remember for about 10 or so years serving at a church. I loved serving so much, I did it 3 times a week. It was very satisfying. Not to say that all our serving must be to impress people...isn't that what the pharisees were known for? Sure we say we're serving God...but if they are honest anyone in any ministry will tell you there is a fine line. When we recently implemented the 'home church' model, I was going through withdrawals for the old model (the one I've been accustomed to since...circa the 70's. But I soon realized its benefits. I never before really appreciated the sabbath as I do now. Its a breath of fresh air. So this is what a sabbath is supposed to be! It has been good for my soul. I usually rest and read or watch videos. Its good...I mean, gooood. And it just feels good to detox from the autopilot mode of the old structure. kaala on "Singing and Dancing Through Life???" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=20#post-47 Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:03:44 +0000 kaala 47@http://manaolana.org/talk/ Watch this very brief philosophy of life video <a href="http://www.neticons.net/music_life/" rel="nofollow">http://www.neticons.net/music_life/</a> (wfs) and let me know what you think... Van on "Eh you Hawaiian?" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=19#post-46 Thu, 24 Apr 2008 06:12:25 +0000 Van 46@http://manaolana.org/talk/ Home Church, the curiosity has risen from a lot of people. If you goggle, “Home Church” you will find all kinds of pages and topics covering this subject. The first page will cover “the church movement of this generation” Well before I get into that, let me share what was taught to me. A friend asked me “Are you Hawaiian? What makes you Hawaiian? My answer was “yes I am Hawaiian,” after a long pause, thinking this is a trick question I answered, “the blood through me and my ancestors.” Then he asked me what makes you a Christian? “Believing Jesus Christ is my savior.” (John 3:16-18; [16] “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,* that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.) It is that simple, but… don’t think if you just say it; then you are saved. Sadly mistaken, like a lot of Christians. God knows what is in your heart and He knows if you are all mouth (Hawaiians say waha : vaha: only words and means nothing) A true confession will transform you whole life, and I mean transform. Before I truly accepted Christ as my savior, I was a dope head smoking pot every day, committing sexual sin including adultery, a great liar, a thief, a raging mad man and a lonely man with a puka (hole) in my heart searching for love and trust. Again I will tell you my life is not perfect I still have some rubbish I need to take out, but a lot has changed and God is not done with me yet. What does this have to do with the home church movement, well here is my question; why go to Church, is that the only place you can be saved? Next question what is church? I remember my friend Shelby telling me how he took another friend hiking and on the trail they discussed some issues. Shelby talked to his friend about God and how He made a difference in Shelby’s life and what He can do for his friend. By the time they got to the top of the mountain Shelby’s friend asked how he can be saved. Shelby explained to his friend, just accept Christ as his savior, and he did. What is Church? “a building for public and especially Christian worship” is the first thing listed as defining a church in the Merriam-Webster online dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Church). In the New Testament it is the translation of the Greek word ecclesia, which is synonymous with the Hebrew kahal of the Old Testament, both words meaning simply an assembly, the character of which can only be known from the connection in which the word is found. There is no clear instance of its being used for a place of meeting or of worship; although in post-apostolic times it early received this meaning. This found in the Easton’s Bible Dictionary (http://eastonsbibledictionary.com/c/church.htm). Now we know what Church was called and what Church is called, which is correct? They both are, but do you need a building to worship God? Does it have to be 1 day a week, does it have to be Sundays, is there a certain amount of people needed to attend for it to be called an assembly or Chruch? The answer is NO. If it was yes, then we are all in trouble, imagine if God put a number that he wanted to attend “Church,” what number do you think He would put? 6,602,224,175 (this was the world population in mid year of 2007.) What! To much, remember we are all His kids and He love every one of us, don’t you think He wants all of us saved. Here’s the deal if you are able to work with one person as often as possible and God save them at least you help one person. If there is a church of 20,000 and only 100 truly accept Christ, the other 19,900 are there to fill their “holy” quota you still have a better percentage, 100%. My mentor told me the best class size to teach anyone anything is 1. And where do you think He wants all of us to meet or gather; all in one building? I no think we can fit, but how about in all our houses, under every tree, what about on a boat, or in a coffee shop, on a mound, Beach!!!! I don’t think it matters were we worship the Lord just as long we worship Him. Ok I think every one is getting the picture, but I’m on a roll now so, does God want us to meet to worship, and break bread, and learn on a specific day? Which day do you think He would like you to worship? Yup, you got it, everyday. God allows His son to die; for our salvation and we choose one day to gather and worship Him. Something is wrong, our creator, the One who loves us so much, gives us life is only worth 3 hours of one day, to sing a few songs and to listen to His servant, then talk story amongst ourselves. I think this is the reason we are spiritually deprived, how does a professional boxer become a champion or a student become a straight A student? They work at it and they strive to be the best. What does God want for you? All your heart and soul and mind, that’s all… Still having a hard time with the Home Church idea, then you must be stuck with tradition, if that’s the case please feed yourself and grow. Be more like Christ. (Hebrew 5:12-14; [12] In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! [13] Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. [14] But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.) NIV Aloha, Van Chinen kaala on "Galatians 6" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=18#post-45 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:10:33 +0000 kaala 45@http://manaolana.org/talk/ What counts? Granted the following scriptures are all about whether or not circumcision was good/bad, required or not to be a follower of Jesus. Are there any other actions or behaviors that have the outer trappings of religion/rules/requirements that are likewise "nothing"? I think so... 1. Gal. 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. 2. Gal. 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 3. 1Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts. leesa on "Galatians 6" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=18#post-44 Sun, 20 Apr 2008 07:40:32 +0000 leesa 44@http://manaolana.org/talk/ Paul speaks of restoring each other "gently". Gentleness is a fruit of the spirit. I do not think gentleness is weakness. I think that it is actually controlled strength. In martial arts the people that have caused me the most physical harm are the ones that have a lack of skill. I have felt very comfortable sparring with those that have been training for a long time and have learned how to reign in their power and spar gently. It takes incredible control to pull back a kick, or a punch at just the right distance so as to not harm your partner. The opposite of that is sparring with a novice, that doesn't even need to be very strong, however they are only capable of one speed...full force! It is the Holy Spirit at work within us that will allow us to respond to people and situations with self control, without pride, without concern for your rights, and without arrogance; strength controlled. His statement about what matters most is faith expressing itself in love really is evidence of a gentle nature on display. Gentle people will be devoted to seeing restoration in those that have fallen away. Are you fighting the good fight? Are you a partner that can control your knock out power and deliver a kick that is meant to develop and grow, rather than kill and destroy? Let's work at letting our gentleness (controlled strength) be evident to all! leesa on "Galatians 5-part 1" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=16#post-43 Sun, 20 Apr 2008 07:11:41 +0000 leesa 43@http://manaolana.org/talk/ Persuasion...modern day Babylon. It is dangerous because it can take on a new form at will. It is virtually unrecognizable. It is an aggressive verb at work in each of us. What I realize is that I am tired of "persuading" people to taste and see that Jesus is good. He is motivation enough. In that statement I realize that persuasion has also been at work in me... Dayn on "Galatians 5-part 1" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=16#post-42 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:11:44 +0000 Dayn 42@http://manaolana.org/talk/ You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. GALATIANS 5:7-9 I don't ever remember reading this. I thought it was really interesting. If you ever go running, the moment you start to think it hurts, slower the pace comes, then the breathing feels heavier, sometimes the only think that you think is that you have to stop or go back. Or turn down that one way because its a shorter distance... Well I have done the prior. :) I think we are often persuaded blindly and all of a sudden as we open our eyes we realize we are lost. Not only are we lost, we are scared, terrified. We have lost ourselves, when we didn't even know who we were in the first place. Sometimes the persuasion is camoflauged or pretty blatant, but because of it's charming ways, we are intrigued. "Persuasion" "The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be." What's your persuasion? Is it that TV show? Your new friends? That "one more" drink? Is it you? It's pretty scary. I do Fear my God. I pray that for all of you that you can breakthrough persuasion and hear the one that does call you. For he wants us to keep running a good race. That we keep being ahead of persuasion and following after Jesus. Dayn on "Visioneering" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=17#post-41 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:29:25 +0000 Dayn 41@http://manaolana.org/talk/ The vision that God has for our lives (his plan) can only be seen when we voluntarily close our eyes, open ourselves and step. kaala on "Visioneering" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=17#post-40 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:31:04 +0000 kaala 40@http://manaolana.org/talk/ another quote-like saying I heard about vision was that it doesn't generally come to a committee but rather through a person. Or here's a real one: “Vision looks inward and becomes duty.Vision looks outward and becomes aspiration.Vision looks upward and becomes faith.” Stephen Wise or... “People only see what they are prepared to see.” from Emerson kaala on "Anybody read "The Shack"?" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=12#post-39 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:26:03 +0000 kaala 39@http://manaolana.org/talk/ p. 206 But don't you want us to set priorities? You know: God first, then whatever; followed by whatever? The trouble with living by priorities is that it sees everything as a hierarchy [how's seasons?? KS], a pyramid, and you an I have already had that discussion. If you put God at the topwhat does that really mean and how much is enough? How much time do you give me before you can go on about the rest of your day, the part that interests you so much more? papa interrupted, you see mack, i don't just want a piece of you and a piece of your life. Even if you were able, which you are not, to give me the biggest piece, that is not what I want. I want all of you and all of every part of you and your day. JESUS: Mack, I don't want to be first among a list of value; i want to be at the center of everything. I think this particular quote has had a pretty significant impact on me. While I say that I have freedom in Christ more and more I'm realizing it was just a nice looking, well set up, airconditioned prison as Leesa described in the Galatians study (about the bird in the cage). My rules? You must read the bible. You must have a quiet time. You must go to church. You must tithe. You must go to a small group. When I come to the point where I not only say it but actually accept it I then I can have freedom. Then I can say, "hey, I want to be with God, I want to read the word for my relationship with him, not for COMPLIANCE. Dayn on "Visioneering" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=17#post-38 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:45:37 +0000 Dayn 38@http://manaolana.org/talk/ Visioneering By Andy Stanley "VISIONS THRIVE IN AN ENVIRONMENT OF UNITY; THEY DIE IN AN ENVIRONMENT OF DIVISION" tracimattos on "Anybody read "The Shack"?" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=12#post-37 Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:45:10 +0000 tracimattos 37@http://manaolana.org/talk/ I thought it was pretty strange at first.just keep reading. It gets rather interesting. leesa on ""Stepping Up" description from Leesa" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=4#post-36 Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:29:49 +0000 leesa 36@http://manaolana.org/talk/ not too late Jon. I was going to wait till a few more people registered. I will keep you posted. leesa on "Anybody read "The Shack"?" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=12#post-35 Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:28:36 +0000 leesa 35@http://manaolana.org/talk/ I started it today. I was all in until the part where he is in the shack...perhaps I have boxed God into a certain mental imagery that has strongly colored my perception of who he is. I am having a hard time staying open to God as the mother. I will hang in there and keep reading leesa on "Galatians 5-part 1" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=16#post-34 Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:26:34 +0000 leesa 34@http://manaolana.org/talk/ The freedom Paul speaks of in this chapter is the core of what I think we are trying to achieve in this phase of Mana'olana. We are warned about falling away from grace by following even part of the law. Legalism defames the message of the cross. However I feel it is insipid and even viewed as holy. Many of us would have a hard time seeing legalism even within ourselves unless we make a conscious effort for God to expose the areas that have become guilt ridden and see what is done from a position of habit rather than desire. What really matters is how well our "faith is expressed thru love" This is huge! Its not about how often you go to church, how many verses you memorize, how many ministries you are involved in. But rather is your faith in Jesus being expressed 24/7, in love. If you only have time to read this one chapter I would soak in it for a few days. The ironic thing is that I have been reading it for the last 2 days and have felt more condemnation, guilt and weight piled on me than I've felt in awhile. I believe it means I am about to have some kind of breakthru. tracimattos on "Anybody read "The Shack"?" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=12#post-33 Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:42:32 +0000 tracimattos 33@http://manaolana.org/talk/ Okay, so I picked the book up on Sunday night at Border's and didnt get a chance to read it until Monday night after work.. I would have finished it in one night.. but I had to tend to mommy duties. So I woke up early Tuesday morning and finished it. Well, Im really thankful that I read it. I think it spoke to me in many different ways... one was for our church and how God isnt rituals and institutions but wants to live in us, and have a relationship with us. I coulnt help but to compare it to our new movement to garage church, a lot of the relationship part took place over sharing of food and just talking story. Everything was relationships. There was so much covered in this book, I could relate to Mack's feelings because I felt the same way when my brother was killed, sad and angry. But just reading this book has helped so much.. It has helped me to realize that God is so powerful and yet he truly allows us to be free, free in a sense to love him or not. I think the word he used is "independence" and I viewed it as choosing to live worldly and seperate of Him. And that when bad things happen it is not of God and instead of mankinds own "independence". This book has left me thinking about a lot..I look forward to talking about it with all of you. Aloha, Traci baldasiandude on ""Stepping Up" description from Leesa" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=4#post-32 Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:41:13 +0000 baldasiandude 32@http://manaolana.org/talk/ i would be interested, hope the chance to get in on this hasn't gone by seeing that its been up for a week and im just finally getting into the bloggin' thing. baldasiandude on "Anybody read "The Shack"?" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=12#post-31 Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:38:22 +0000 baldasiandude 31@http://manaolana.org/talk/ Ka'ala, a good friend of mine highly recommended it to me. since you also read it, i guess i chalk it up as confirmation to get it. johnny mo kaala on "Does mass equal capability?" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=15#post-30 Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:04:23 +0000 kaala 30@http://manaolana.org/talk/ I'm supposed to be working on a presentation for this week right now but got sidetracked reading this post. Cory is right on when he says "SOLID" Terry. You've got it going on. In fact the way you explain things helps me understand me. I'm like "yeah -that's what I was thinking but couldn't figure out what I was thinking!" :) For me the size of the church, the location of the church, the logo colors of the church ;) are kind of filler issues. Got nothing else to talk about? Try these... Capability is the word. Am I doing what I'm capable of? I'm I living in the full capacity of what God has for me? If going to a meeting on a Sunday helps me to do that I'm on it. If not I'm off it. When it gets religious, when it gets more social than spiritual I think capability suffers. We take our eyes of the target and the prize - Jesus. I gotta get to work but thank you for challenging and confirming and increasing who I am in Christ. coryutak on "Does mass equal capability?" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=15#post-29 Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:40:05 +0000 coryutak 29@http://manaolana.org/talk/ Solid Ter. I've never felt at place in a large church and I've been to a few. Even after serving for years to the point of neglecting the sabbath, the small group or even one to one is where I'm at. I was at a conference a few years ago and a pastor of a local church came up to me and asked where I fellowshipped at which was followed by the how many you got going there question. The condescending tone of his voice is what rubbed me wrong. I mean why make the numbers thing the first thing you talk about with a stranger of all the other interesting things that encapsulates us as people saved by Christ? All I know is that at the end of the conversation, there wasn't much love. Don't get me wrong, he's a bro and I love him. Maybe it was partly the arthritis and/or my growling stomach. Sure, I guess its exciting to know that God is using your sermons/church to touch lives in a way that shows itself in numbers. As long as the congregation is growing to know Jesus and make him known... and not go on automatic pilot. Like john 15 is saying we need to remain in the vine (Jesus)if we are to grow in spiritual capability. Terry on "Does mass equal capability?" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=15#post-28 Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:13:36 +0000 Terry 28@http://manaolana.org/talk/ One of the main heated discussions in the future of the military debate is the issue with mass and capability. When President George Bush picked Donald Rumsfeld as the Secretary of Defense, there was finally someone in the civilian leadership who raised some hard questions towards the leadership in the military about how it operates. One of the major discussions was the issue of mass and capability. While many of the marine and army generals focused on mass and numbers, Rumsfeld insisted on capability. He would argue that "It's not how much you put there, but what you put there and how you put them there is what counts". When going to war generals would often insist on really large numbers of troops, and the only real strategy and solutions they tend to come up with is to flood the place with troops. This happened during both the first and second Gulf War. A common criticism with the war in Iraq which is often mentioned in the media and by people who served their time and are frustrated is that "there is not enough troops". However, according to some military experts, would argue by saying that the main problem is that there isn't enough of the right kinds of troops, in the right places, at the right time. For example, when there was heavy fighting a lot of casualties could've been prevented if there was more tanks and heavy armor, on the other hand after major combat stopped, all the tanks and heavy combat units should of been rotated out with light infantry as quickly as possible. When you have an area where none of the locals present any hostility or danger, flooding the place with large, aggressive looking vehicles and having checkpoints at every corner will frustrate and anger the locals around the area. There were also situations where troops were put in places where none of them should've been there. Some of my personal observations confirms this. I've read 2 books with different perspectives of the 3rd Infantry Division's which was one of the main forces invading Iraq. Being mainly a heavy armor division which contains more tanks and heavy armor, tank crews ended up having to do tasks they had no prior training to keep up with rapidly changing situations that confronted them. For example when they had to stop in middle of towns, they ended up having to do military police duties, such as running checkpoints because there wasn't any military police units available. With their enemies attempting to attack them disguised as civilians, it was a very difficult job where they had to quickly switch from police officers to soldiers. There were numerous occasions where there wasn't enough foot soldiers to go around, so the tank crews had to dismount from their vehicles and clear out buildings themselves. Fortunately these guys were very well disciplined and well led and things turned out quite well for them, however this is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. In a unconventional war what you end up having is all kinds of different things happening at once in such a very small area. In one spot there will be fierce firefights, then a short distance down there will be humanitarian efforts going on, and another spot nearby there will be military police units maintaining order. As I mentioned in my previous post there is a need for the military to re-organize from large divisions to smaller battle groups. One of the main reasons for this is to allow military units to have a "Plug and Play" functionality, where they are able to be sent in quickly and then quickly pull out of the field. Currently the military is designed to deploy mass, not capability. As I mentioned in the previous post, the military is currently designed to deploy mass due to the fact that the deployment structure hasn't change since the Second World War. During that time technology and overall quality of the troops in terms of training wasn't as good as it is today, so the army had to focus on mass instead. The demands of modern war is to deploy the right kind of capabilities at the right time when they are needed, without any considerations for this numbers can be a moot point which can lead to unnecessary waste of lives and resources. One of the things that never sat right with me is when people in church get excited with numbers. I really don't get excited when people talk about how the church is increasing in numbers and use that as a measure of success. A common problem I would see is that there would be so much effort into drawing people into church but no effort to keep them connected. A friend made a good point where when a new person comes to church or gives their lives to the Lord it's an opportunty for the church to welcome them into the family, nothing more, nothing less. All too often it seems like people get all excited about all these opportunities and labor hard to create them yet don't really do anything when it comes. It's really sad when there's people who are eager to seek God and come to church for healing and direction but don't find it. I've personally have witnessed this and also been one those who has been hurt because of this, and it really sucks. In a church that I went to before I remember the painful moments in my life where I felt totally left out. I just didn't feel noticed or welcome. At first I realize how much I contributed to the problem. For those who know me I tend to be very quiet. It's not so much I want to be anti-social or anything rather it takes a while for me to get comfortable to openly talk to people. I tend worry about what and how I say things because I had to grow up with many people who never seem to think about how much their words can make or break others. Also, I enjoy listening to people as long they talk about interesting stuff. I began to consult some of my friends about this, and in a typical manner all of them pointed the finger at me and said that the problem was within me. I did some hard personal introspections about how I am causing myself to be left out, however as time went on no matter what I did nothing seems to work. Frustrated, I begged God to help me become more connected at church, I was willing to give up everything if they were holding me back in any way. Still nothing, then I began to think that I had no place in church, and probably no place in God's Kingdom either. However I begun to notice how many people didn't seem to have a whole lot going on in their spiritual lives. When I'm listening to conversations there's nothing of substance. I didn't hear a lot about personal struggles, experiences with God, attempts to put the Bible into practice, etc. There more I tried to get connected, I began to think do I even want to get connected with these people? There was a very few people who were actually living and practicing their faith, however they also held leadership positions in the ministries and it was hard to get ahold of them. When it came to doing things together as a church it was all about these special events and programs to draw people into church. Although it did draw a lot of people in at first, eventually many left and the congregation went back to the same size again. When ministry leaders would talk about "stepping out of your comfort zones" and reaching out to non-believers and try to get them into church, I would think "Sheesh, this congregation can't even reach out to each other, how can they even reach out to non-believers!?" (1 John 4:19-21, 1 Peter 2:12). Then my suspicions were confirmed when one of the prominent ministry leaders stepped down, who was also my personal mentor. I met with him after that and he told me that he felt burned out and his frustrations he had with the church. As a church I believe that we need to focus on capability rather than mass. For example Scriptures such as 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 mentions some capabilities we should desire to have. How capable are we as individuals and as a community of believers of demonstrating grace, patience, forgiveness, acceptance, respect, etc? A small group of believers who live by faith in God and obey His laws can do way more than a huge group of people who go to church for years with lousy motives. I remember a Gulf War veteran in a documentary interview said that "One well-trained soldier can do more in the battle than 10 soldiers who can't even shoot.". kaala on "Transformation of the Church" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=13#post-27 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:11:45 +0000 kaala 27@http://manaolana.org/talk/ Thanks for posting this Terry! Ever since you shared these insights at church it's been on my mind. Mahalo! leesa on "Galatians 4" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=14#post-26 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:38:08 +0000 leesa 26@http://manaolana.org/talk/ "Even in the best of homes, sons who are loved by their father and destined to be heirs of his estate go through a period of supervision. It is entirely appropriate for immature heirs to be subject to the care of guardians. Obedience to their guardians is evidence of their love for their father. But it would be inappropriate for sons to be kept under the supervision of guardians once they had reached the age of maturity. It is not a mark of disloyalty for sons to eagerly anticipate the day set by their father when they will no longer be subject to guardians but will enjoy their full rights as sons. Once that day comes, their love for their father will not be expressed through subjection to guardians but by a free expression of love from the heart of mature sons." ~I am understanding that I no longer need milk and need more protein in order to grow. I need to find out what works best for my body type, age, activity level. I need to have clear personal goals and know what I want to look like when I grow up. I've been given the tools,and I am complete in knowledge. I am a grown up Christian, not a baby and need to act like one! The milk will rot my teeth and stunt my growth. Some things will be difficult habits to break. Babies that dont reach developmental milestones get classified as a failure to thrive. I think that is what John 10:10 speaks of in the promise of life to the full. Jesus is calling us not to live and exist, but to THRIVE! leesa on "Transformation of the Church" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=13#post-25 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:22:37 +0000 leesa 25@http://manaolana.org/talk/ I love your metaphor and insight. I pray that I will have the opportunity to learn and grow more from you and your perspectives and thoughts. You are quiet, but when you do speak, have power and much wisdom. Thank you Terry. Terry on "Transformation of the Church" http://manaolana.org/talk/topic.php?id=13#post-24 Mon, 14 Apr 2008 23:36:55 +0000 Terry 24@http://manaolana.org/talk/ When Kaala talked about moving to the home church model I was quite excited about it. It really made me think about what I have been researching about transformation and the future of the military debate. One of my hobbies is to read about military history and see what going on in the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. As I research about what's going on one of the things common problems I hear about the military that is affecting our troops in Iraq is how the military organizes itself for deployment and combat. While I'm not sure about the present time the Army usually organizes their troops in what they call divisions (82nd or 101st Airborne divisions for example). These divisions tend to be very large which consists of a lot of people. Furthermore, a lot of materials need to go along for people within the divisions. This makes it very hard to deploy, move, and change them. This organizational structure developed during the Second World War and haven't change much if not at all since then. During that time period the Army depended on draftees to fill in the space for all the lower ranks. Usually draftees are not very well competent at what they do. They aren't very motivated and cannot be expected to take the initiative making the right choices on their own in battle, because of that there is a military culture that uses a rigid rank-based hierarchy command and control structure where there is a lot of micromanaging. Now we have a much different army. Since the army is based on volunteers troops are generally much better trained, they also have a lot of people with valuable experience in combat and in the field. However, due to the organizational structure and a rigid military culture it is very hard for soldiers to make use of that extra training and skills. This creates all kinds of problems and is seriously hampering the military's ability to succeed in wars. There is very little mutual respect and trust between the higher ranks and the soldiers. It's common for the higher command to disregard the lower ranks opinions or requests even if the soldiers have better understanding or experience in the field. Since there's no requirement to have actual combat experience to climb up the ranks, it creates opportunities for all kinds for problems. There's very little opportunities for open debate and discussions, and usually either you agree with the leader's decision and act like it's the greatest idea ever, or you disagree and get out. It's hard to be flexible and adaptive with this style of command and control structure, and this is what gives insurgents in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Vietnamese an advantage over the Americans. They don't have the technological advantage, however their flexible command and control structure allows them to stay a step ahead of the Americans. Although this rigid structure worked in World War 2, where all the armies fought in a symmetrical or conventional manner, it doesn't work when you have a assymmetrical or unconventional war. In a unconventional war the enemy can attack from anywhere and at anytime, the lower ranks and soldiers need to be able to make right decisions on their own quickly without the higher command telling them what to do, and they cannot afford to be hassled or pulled back by the higher command either. What miltary transformation and reformers are proposing is a more loose, flexible command structure. Instead as a rigid hierachy command structure the army should operate as loose, flexible, interdependent networks. The army also needs to re-organize into smaller, efficiently organized battle groups instead of the large clunky divisions with more trigger-pullers (fighters) and less staff people to manage them. The weapons wielded by modern soldiers are far more powerful than those used in the Second World War, therefore there's no need for so much of them to achieve the same effect. Also training methods has improved a lot, so there will be a much lesser need to micromanage. I see much parallels in this to the way the church organizes itself. One problem I tend to notice in my past experiences with churches and I'm personally responsible for is the lack of people taking the initiative to grow in their spiritual maturity. People just kind of sit around and won't do anything good on their unless their pastor says so. There's also too many people sitting around not doing much while there's too few people doing a lot which can wind up with people getting hurt and burnt out. Also in a big group it's so easy to hide and you can pretty much spend the time without really sharing yourself. Either you can pretty much blend in with the crowd and hide or you might want to share but just won't be able to because there so many people yet so little time to do so. It's pretty easy to be a lousy Christian and get away with it. Being in smaller groups there's more opportunities and is much easier to interact with each other. With less people but with the same set time people can also more opportunities to bring and share something with one another, whether it may be gifts and talents, or the blessings or struggles in their lives. There's also more room for accountability, if there's not much going on with your life and not saying much about it, it'll be much more apparent. In order to make the most out of the time, people will have to bring something to make it well spent. When I read the letters from Paul in the New Testament, it seems like the church is alive with people sharing all kinds of talents and spiritual gifts with each other. One thing I wish more people would realize is that the how the church is doing is base on how the people who are in it is doing. If the church is doing well it is because we are doing well, if the church sucks, it is because we suck. As far as large churches I don't think that if they are bad it's just because of their size, and I hope I'm not saying that larger churches are inferior to smaller ones. What I do want to get across though is that the home church in many ways does sound to me just a legitimate as the standard church practice we commonly see, and this is simply a different way of doing church, not a better way of doing one. How much or less better depends on the individual.